Episode 34 Mr. Money Mustache - Investor/Blogger/Financial Freedom Advocate
Comedian Rosie Tran (@funnyrosie) interviews popular finance blogger, Mr. Money Mustache (@mrmoneymustache), about investing and financial freedom. They talk about his blog and his techniques for retiring early and getting out of the rat race for good! Mr. Money Mustache tells his story of searching for financial freedom in a consumer obsessed society, where people are maxed out and overspent. He explains how him and his wife, retired in less than ten years and are now living the life of their dreams, debt free, with residual income, and all the free time to follow their passion, dreams, and raise their family!
Connect with Mr Money Mustache:
Rosie Tran: You're listening to Out of The Box with Rosie Tran. You can find Out of The Box on Stitcher iTunes and click subscribe if you like us or leave a comment. Out of The Box podcast is sponsored by hugmetees.com Spread Love, Give A Hug. hugmetees.com. I am so excited. I am here today with Mr. Money Mustache. How are you doing today?
Mr. Money Mustache: Thanks, Rosie. It's good to be a guest on your show for the first time.
Rosie Tran: I am really excited about you. I actually got requests from some of my listeners to have you on the podcast.
Mr. Money Mustache: That's kind of mysterious. I want to know who these people are.
Rosie Tran: I get a couple emails and even my brother in law was like, "Oh, you need to have Mr. Money Mustache on there because he is preaching what you are preaching.", which is alternative lifestyle, alternative thinking and you're doing it with money.
Mr. Money Mustache: Yeah, I guess that's true.
Rosie Tran: Tell me, listeners for those who aren't familiar with you. You run a blog and you advocate a certain type of thinking that's a little bit different than the mainstream.
Mr. Money Mustache: Yeah, trying not to scare people away by using the F word of frugality, so my blog instead is more of a description of a slightly less ridiculous lifestyle that leads to much better results. The basic idea from my own story is that you can retire a lot earlier if you don't spend all your money and so my wife and I retired at just about age 30, which is like nine years ago now and people still find this to be a questionable claim, but it's pretty much inevitable if you just, if you have to get on board early.
Rosie Tran: Follow your plan that you, that you talk about. Why do you think people are so scared of frugality?
Mr. Money Mustache: Well, because we've been trained right down to the cellular level that more is always better so like more income is of course, better than less income. How could it not be? That means more spending is, if you're in more income and you don't spend at all then you're not getting a better life and so many people have internalized that that if I propose that you don't spend all your money and you give it to yourself instead, invest it, then you're not going to be as happy and it turns out that's just totally wrong and you can actually be much happier even while you spend whatever amount of money you want and the rest goes to your freedom fund and then you end up with this great life of not having to work.
Rosie Tran: Well, that definitely sounds like a good life. Tell me a little bit about your personal story. What got you and your wife on this path? Obviously you started early and what triggered you guys to say, "Hey, we want to get out of the rat races. This is not cool."
Mr. Money Mustache: It was kind of a weird stumbled in situation. I grew up in this other country out Canada where back in the 70s and 80s, it wasn't quite as flashy as the US where I live now and you just have a bit of a lower key lifestyle like a Honda Civic instead of a Honda Accord, and just little things like that, and then I got.
Rosie Tran: It's really funny that you say that because one of my good friends, Christina Walkinshaw who's a pretty popular comedian in Canada. She always would tell me that when she was out here. She would say, "Hey, Honda Civic is really fancy in Canada." She would, I don't know why.
Mr. Money Mustache: It is. That's what the rich people would drive. Well, when I was a kid, since the oil boom, Canada has kind of turned into a little bit of a Arab Emirates kind of country. Now everyone has like Mercedes, a GL 450s and stuff, but back when I was a kid, that's when I learned my value system so it's kind of different and then I get this job as an engineer. That's why I went to school for and then I worked in software and I moved to the US and continue that field. It's a pretty good paying job, not like super high paying, but you could have a nice car with that salary, but I didn't buy a nice car and I kept investing and then that resulted in being able to retire pretty young.
Rosie Tran: What do you say to people that, because it sounds like you and your wife are on the same page, right?
Mr. Money Mustache: We were. It was kind of gradual though, like oh yeah, so your question was, I forgot. I got totally distracted that, when did you decide to do this? It was, as this money started building up, we were thinking, "What should we do with this?" Then kind of, I did some reading. I've always been interested in finance and then the idea of early retirement kind of came out of all this like, "Hey, we have investments. They give you money every year." We were thinking of starting a family at some point so we figured, "Hey, maybe we could quit working on time to have our first child.", and then both be full time parents because we thought that it would really suck to have a career that you're devoted to and then a kid that you're devoted to, and then you can't decide which one you really want to focus all your powers on, so it was the child raising that got us motivated to retire early.
Rosie Tran: That's very admirable. Why did you decide on both not working instead of maybe you working and your wife retiring or being a stay at home mom or something like that? What made you decide both of you guys?
Mr. Money Mustache: Well, with one person staying home, that's just a normal thing. That's the old fashion way. We wanted to do something a little bit better than normal so it was kind of a challenge and it just seemed more fair that way, right, like instead of having one person quitting and the other one getting to keep doing their career or whatever one, whatever thing you consider more fun. This way, we both get to do the more fun thing because you can of course, still do part time work after you're retired according to my definition. The other thing is I remember, single income families, some of my coworkers, they were still really compromising their careers by, "Oh, my kid is sick and my wife is away so I have to leave and I can't go get this work done." It just seems like kids were a big commitment and I wanted to be able to give it my all instead of like being supposedly this good career worker and then just taking off at 3 o'clock because school is out that day or whatever.
Rosie Tran: Yeah, no that makes sense. I mean you say that that is the conventional to have one parent at home, but I think in this modern day, it seems like more and more people are having dual income households just to keep up with their crazy expenses.
Mr. Money Mustache: That's true. That's one of the things I like to make fun of the most is because a lot of times, it'll be a bunch of expenses that are quite hilarious if you look at them from an outside perspective. There was a great story actually in Washington Post and people forwarded it to me today, and I was like, "These people are masters of scrimping and I still can't get by on two incomes." Then it goes on to describe how this lady was going to the beauty salon and her SUV broke down and then they had to replace it with a financed brand new car and that blew their budget, and it was lost on both the UK study people and the reporter where the problem was in the story.
Rosie Tran: I couldn't agree more. I'm actually, my husband and I are not retired yet, but we're on the path and we're very happily on the path and we're both 30, so we probably will not be as early as you because we didn't start as early, but I constantly hear people saying, " I can barely make ends meet. I can barely make it paycheck to paycheck.", and yet I see certain expenses in their lifestyle that are just, they're saying that they're needs, but they're really, really, really wants.
Mr. Money Mustache: Right. Yeah, we picked these things up from each other as a culture and started to think they're normal, and that's why I always joke about my previous country is because there, you don't pick up the same things. For example, in my whole college career, I don't think I went to dinner more than, went out to a restaurant more than about once or twice in the whole four year period because that was like a phenomenal, like incredible luxury, like $20 on a meal? How could I possibly justify that? That's insane, and I did it because I thought I was being Mr. Donald Trump style guy those two nights. They were about a year apart, but then now I see students in this country, they'll do that every week and they'll like go to spring break and will fly down to Daytona beach or over to Europe and that's all going in the student loan and then they show up later and I have a car during school, you know I just had a bike. Then they come out at the end and like, "Education is so expensive. It's $100,000. Debt. College. Middle class, it's a terrible life." No one even knows that they're screwing up themselves.
Rosie Tran: Well, what I like about your blog is the personal responsibility because I think that there's a lack of personal responsibility in our daily financial intelligence and a really high level of blame. People who get called out on their horrible spending habits get really defensive and they blame the economy and they blame, I mean insert 20,000 things that they blame and I love that you're telling people, "Hey, take responsibility. You need to figure out your expenses."
Mr. Money Mustache: That's true. I do get in trouble quite a bit for that.
Rosie Tran: You do? Do people attack you or do you get angry letters?
Mr. Money Mustache: A lot of complaints. Well, especially if my blog finds its way onto the mainstream, which it does a couple times a year. There's a Forbes article recently or Wall Street journalist something, and they're like, "This family retired early by living a sensible life. Now sensible sounds like a terrible life.", and just, "His wife's going to leave him because he's probably not treating her right.", or like, "They're lying. It's totally fabricated. Now let's get back to the real world." There's so many complaints come in and my style of a being a little bit provocative, I do that because it's fun and I'm aware it's not the best psychological tactic to try to convert a really defensive person, but I just have to do that because I'm retired and I'm not going to do something that's not fun.
Rosie Tran: That is hilarious. I just think that, well, first of all, to I guess put a fuel into your point of view. I live in Los Angeles and which is one of the most expensive cities in the United States and my husband and I make very, very medium. I mean I've Googled the statistics. We're literally in the total medium income. We're not considered, I think we're actually considered lower middle class according to earning standards.
Mr. Money Mustache: Yeah.
Rosie Tran: We are able to live on a budget and have tons of extra money for savings yet I constantly hear people saying we're in a horrible economy, there's nothing they can do. They're totally hopeless. They're victims. They just are scraping by, set penny by penny, and I'm not understanding what's going on. I mean do you think we're just brainwashed to be mindless consumers?
Mr. Money Mustache: That's about it, yeah.
Rosie Tran: Okay.
Mr. Money Mustache: You could bake a really, you can boil it down to a really simple concepts especially in LA's, you can look at your cars first and how much you're wasting on cars because the middle class income is huge compared to food, but it's not very big compared to the cost of owning and operating a car especially if you're one of those clowns who drives like $20,000 miles a year just for recreational and commuting use.
Rosie Tran: Do you have one of those cars where it costs $200 a week to fill up the tank?
Mr. Money Mustache: Yeah, exactly, so if you're like making less than $500,000 a year and you're driving a Cadillac Escalade, then a big portion of your money is just going to that stupid truck. Transportation is something that you have to think about, you know that's, at levels of income that aren't super high, you actually have to work and minimize how much you drive and drive a real car. That's just one concrete example. There's all kinds of other stuff too like the whole restaurants and what you choose to do for recreation and everything, but cars are really the big one for most people.
Rosie Tran: What would you say are the top three major expenses that people are draining their money and actually putting themselves into indentured servitude to keep these items?
Mr. Money Mustache: Besides the cars, I guess it's going to be, maybe food next and I don't usually pick on housing too much because most people don't go really overboard on housing, simply because no one will lend them enough to do that because they have spent so much on their cars and food and recreation. There's usually kind of a miscellaneous budget that I don't understand either like people do this activity called shopping, like will you go to a store and you don't even know what you need and then you come home with stuff that you didn't plan to buy and that can add up to in the five digits per year too.
Rosie Tran: Do you think that once you have a retirement plan or residual income in place, rental properties, other things like that that it's okay to go on a shopping spree or you think that entire mentality of consumerism issues not, you're eliminating it and you think it should be eliminated?
Mr. Money Mustache: It's healthy to eliminate. I mean you can certainly get yourself set up with enough income that you can afford to do that. You can, as long as you work and save enough you could have a crazy lifestyle and still not, and still retire, but I'm hoping that if you follow the way that I suggest, you kind of get rid of these bad habits and suddenly they weren't making you happy anyway and then it's just better, better for all involved including yourself.
Rosie Tran: What are some of the ways that you would encourage, you said your wife is onboard, I mentioned this earlier, but some people I know, maybe they're really into finance and their spouse is a shopaholic or their spouse is, like I am lucky to have gotten, my husband was not onboard and I actually got him onboard with the financial program and now we're both saving and following a plan very similar to yours. We have other investment people that we follow, but I know some people who say, "You know, geez, my wife is just a shopaholic. I can't get her onboard or you know, my husband is just crazy and he loves going out to eat once a week and he won't give it up."
Mr. Money Mustache: That's a tricky one and it should be viewed as a cautionary message to the younger people who are choosing their spouse because instead of just looking at how tight the dress fits or how nice the car and the cufflinks are, you might want to make sure you're compatible in the areas of money too. On the other hand, I do hear a lot of really nice stories of conversions, mindset changes among people. One guy just sent me a pretty neat little presentation that he made for his wife. It's pretty cool.
Rosie Tran: Like a PowerPoint?
Mr. Money Mustache: Yeah, it was like, it actually was kind of a PowerPoint. He said he made down this other little spreadsheet makey-thing or presentation. It was very nice though and it was, it wasn't just, you should do this, you should do that, instead it was saying like, "Our dream together.", and then said, "Here's what we're doing now and here's what this is going to lead us to in 10 years.", and then he said, "Here's another thing where we could live right now and if we did this for 10 years, we would be in this other situation.", and then the other situation sounded really great, like they ended up with $800,000 in investments and no mortgage and no loans, and they can quite working and have their kids. These guys were in their 20s and I thought, "Hey, that's a neat way to do it you know."
I've had articles too. I've written articles called Selling The Dream, a couple of them. It's a little serious and it goes into the psychology of how to explain stuff and bottom line is you can't just nag people like, "I thought you already had golf clubs. You can't." You know you can't just do that or you can't say, "That dress, we can't afford that. Look at this credit card bill."
Rosie Tran: It looks like you're advocating for giving the person a choice and saying, "Hey, this is the benefits. This is the pros of living this lifestyle that I'm asking you to live."
Mr. Money Mustache: Yeah. Yeah, it's really, that's why I call it Selling The Dream because the lifestyle is fantastically better, but you have to kind of present that picture first instead of just telling the person what not to do because everyone wants to defend what they're doing. Nobody likes to feel like an idiot or be told that they're an idiot, but with all that said, some people are really more ingrained in this stuff and there might be hopeless cases and people shouldn't be afraid to get out of a bad situation if you try diligently for a long time, and if it's important to you, you don't have to stay with a person who has completely different values than you.
Rosie Tran: That's true, but there's also programs I think like Shopaholics Anonymous or some like addiction gambling, addiction type programs because a lot of the spending is emotional.
Mr. Money Mustache: Oh, yeah, it's all, all of our spending is emotional to a certain extent whether you're a shopaholic or not. If you're buying anything besides baked potatoes, you're trying to buy happiness and feelings so the extent to which you go overboard on that kind of explains how much your emotions are being fed by your spending.
Rosie Tran: That's my puppy barking in the background. She's the cohost of Out of The Box podcast. Here name is Mitsy. She's a Jack Russell terrier.
Mr. Money Mustache: Yeah.
Rosie Tran: Did you feel, so you're saying that this is emotional spending. Did you feel that once you guys disconnected from this consumer's lifestyle that you felt a sense of new found confidence or freedom or that you started to view the world around you a little bit differently?
Mr. Money Mustache: Definitely. I find that the benefits begin immediately and one of my favorite words, it's not a real word, is badassity. We use this on the blog a lot.
Rosie Tran: Okay.
Mr. Money Mustache: It's once you start to feel that you are becoming more badass, which means a more capable person who can actually accomplish some stuff for themselves, that's a really, really rewarded feeling. It's much more rewarding than having a nice, nicer car, like a nicer iPad or something like that. It's like, you can actually, you're tougher than the humans around you and you start to have the sense of accomplishment. You could use bicycling, cycling instead of car driving as an example, like it is a completely more powerful experience. It basically turns you into a super human and you get around town without traffic jams and you get in shape while you do it and hardly anyone in this whole country does it, but if you get, if you start cycling and become better at it, you are becoming a badass and that just makes you happier.
Rosie Tran: That's a really cool way to look at it like you're getting super human powers. You're not susceptible to the little small value systems of the people around you.
Mr. Money Mustache: Yeah.
Rosie Tran: And the commercialism.
Mr. Money Mustache: You're not giving up anything. You're actually giving yourself something even as you drastically improve your money situation, even Los Angeles people can become-
Rosie Tran: Even Los Angeles people.
Mr. Money Mustache: Yeah, you can become completely cycle, cycle transport for most people in that city could even though nobody does it right now.
Rosie Tran: Are you guys a two car family or a one car family?
Mr. Money Mustache: Well, I happen to own two vehicles right now, but by normal standards we're a zero car family just in the sense that we don't use them for any kind of normal purpose, so all errands within the town, we always do it by bike and I just fire up the car for rare occasions. For example, when someone's coming to visit out of town. I'll take it out to the airport, which is 45 miles from my house and pick them up, give them the nice treatment, but we don't need these cars at all. They're kind of just luxury wasteful thing that we indulge in just because, well, they're not very expensive either too, like our cars total value of these two things is about $10,000.
Rosie Tran: What about grocery shopping? What do you guys do when you're at the grocery store, you need to carry multiple things home, are you guys, do you guys have a like basket system on your bikes or?
Mr. Money Mustache: Well, there's a neat thing that I discovered. I used to think you needed cars for groceries too, but you can use a backpack for small stuff, but the ultimate solution for groceries is just to trailer and you can just grab these things off Craig's list for $100 for a really nice one.
Rosie Tran: Like a bike trailer?
Mr. Money Mustache: Yeah. Bike trailer and typically, the ones that people use to carry kids are the best ones because they have these nice cover on them.
Rosie Tran: Okay.
Mr. Money Mustache: You're laughing.
Rosie Tran: I'm not laughing at you because I'm laughing that it's not practical. I'm laughing because I imagine these little trailers and people thinking there's cute little kids in there and then there's a cabbage.
Mr. Money Mustache: Oh, yeah. Well, actually that gets you some extra safety for those of you that are concerned about danger on the road is, I am at this whole.
Rosie Tran: There are little kids in there.
Mr. Money Mustache: Yeah, so I'm biking home from the grocery store, it's totally full of jugs of milk and cantaloupes and all this stuff, and everyone's giving you a wide berth, nice safe berth on the road because they're like, "Oh, I don't want to crush the child.", but really.
Rosie Tran: They are the child of milk jugs.
Mr. Money Mustache: Yeah, exactly. Sometimes it's full of beer or even like coils of wires and stuff because I'm building a house right now so I'm, and I'm doing all the construction myself so I go to Home Depot with the my bike trailer and yeah. Then you can even go bigger. I also have a second bike trailer that's eight feet long so it can carry like lumber and Christmas trees and just, appliances the other day, I was carrying a whole range on this trailer.
Rosie Tran: Really?
Mr. Money Mustache: Yeah, bikes are amazing hauling devices.
Rosie Tran: You're probably are getting really buff.
Mr. Money Mustache: Well, as much as my genetics would permit, yeah. I'm sure another, other men would be much more buff than I.
Rosie Tran: Dragging a range, that's pretty, it sounds intense.
Mr. Money Mustache: Yes, so yeah, bikes are great. They really don't have any limitations other than the fact that you can't go, normal person can't go 100 miles a day on a bike, but for normal errands, they're spectacular. They're useful and I'm trying to get people excited about that.
Rosie Tran: I'm excited about that. What I want to discuss, I know you talked, you said just now some people might not think it's practical for everyday errands to ride a bike, and what I noticed is that our perception in this country and in developed markets in general, is a little skewed about what is practical because even a person in America who has very, very little means, who is below the poverty line in this country is probably would be considered middle class in the third world.
Mr. Money Mustache: Yeah, we're extremely rich depending on the country.
Rosie Tran: Extremely wealthy, yeah, depending on the country, so when people say, "Well, that's not really practical." They're kind of looking at things through a certain perspective, which is also coloring their finances I think.
Mr. Money Mustache: Yeah, if you have these expectations where it's normal to have a car and it's normal to have everything brand new, and normal to have cable TV service and $150 cellphone because everybody else does, then it's really easy to use up an entire salary and regardless of how much you earn. It's not until you get over about, I don't know a couple million dollars a year that it starts getting hard to use up any type of salary, so the solution is to look at the other end, which is your spending and you can live a very happy life on. In this country, I'd say you can get down below $7,000.
Rosie Tran: As we say, what is the minimum?
Mr. Money Mustache: Yeah.
Rosie Tran: You think below $7,000?
Mr. Money Mustache: Yeah, $7,000 or maybe $4,000 if you're really, really hard core. I think of that as the floor. I don't come anywhere close to that myself, but that's because I don't need to because we have an even higher income, but it's nice to think of that as $4,000 as a frugal life so therefore my lifestyle is super exorbitant and decadent. If you play that mind game on yourself, then you can really appreciate everything you have and you don't overspend.
Rosie Tran: What about people that live in bigger cities like New York or Chicago where the cost of housing is kind of expensive? Do you think that that's really sick to say $7,000?
Mr. Money Mustache: Well, the example of $7,000 is actually based on a blogging friend of mine. This guy named Jacob who had the blog Early Retirement Extreme. He lived in San Francisco for $7,000 a year.
Rosie Tran: Which is one of the most expensive cities in the US, that's a good deal.
Mr. Money Mustache: Yeah, I think it beats LA so.
Rosie Tran: It does.
Mr. Money Mustache: It all depends on how you want to do it, so he had this neat strategy of, he had a beautiful location but he had an RV in this park like a trailer park in a great locations so he could walk everywhere and the land, the lot land rent price was something like $200 or $300 a month and then he bought the RV for some small price like $12,000 for a surprisingly nice one, and then there's his whole living cost and then everything else in the country isn't really all that much because you can get cheap groceries in any city even in Hawaii where I spent last winter. It was, I was able to get affordable food and bicycles are always free. Gasoline is cheap anywhere in this country not that you need to use that much of it. Yeah, and it kind of depends.
Rosie Tran: I want to talk about food because there's this scare that I constantly see online about inflation and in the media, on CNN, on other channels, talking about inflation, food inflation. People can't afford to eat, people can't afford to live and my grocery bill for my family of two and my two puppies is about $60, I would say under $100 a week. I just go to the regular grocery store and then I go to like a saver grocery store so I'm not understanding what people are talking about with these crazy grocery prices where people can't afford to put food on the table and I literally don't understand what the media's talking about and I don't know if that's because I've unbrainwashed myself into the frugal lifestyle or if there's something I'm missing or, I mean do you know what I'm talking about?
Mr. Money Mustache: Yeah, you're not missing anything. That's kind of, the only place where food is to the extent where it's getting hard to eat is places like Rowan or whatever, where you have to live on a dollar US per day. Here, the food, it goes up and down occasionally like limes are really expensive right now, but it's been dropping since the 50s because the food production has gone up so fast because of these efficiencies.
Rosie Tran: Because of the global economy, yeah.
Mr. Money Mustache: Yeah, and because of this agriculture revolution and you might not like the factory farming. I don't really like some aspects of it, but you can't deny that the food is just dirt cheap, but you have to understand how to get your food. You can't just buy a bunch of prepackaged goods you know that I've.
Rosie Tran: That's something else that bugs me and I don't get it. I always hear people saying, well, you know, it's just not fair because fresh food is just more expensive than processed food and that's why America is so overweight and I go to the grocery. I would say two to three times a week, and the cheapest thing at the grocery is always fresh fruits and vegetables. I'm not understanding what these people are talking about.
Mr. Money Mustache: It's just people who haven't done enough math I guess because potatoes, you can get for.
Rosie Tran: A giant bag for $0.99.
Mr. Money Mustache: Exactly or like.
Rosie Tran: A five pound bag, that's what I'm not understanding. Thank you. I feel validated, Mr. Money Mustache, because I get into this argument with people all the time where they say, "Well, food prices are just out of control. I can't afford to eat.", and they're saying that, they're thinking that I'm shopping at Whole Foods. I'm going to the regular grocery store and the fruits and vegetables are always 100% cheaper than anything else on the store.
Mr. Money Mustache: That's true and especially if you understand the calories that are on each thing like I always say, potatoes are a lot of calories. I don't need a lot of them myself, but I would if I had to save money and if you get oils, stuff that's good for you like olive oil especially at Costco, you're getting billions of calories for pennies you know, you cook up some awesome spicy eggs in a big lake of olive oil and you get this thousand calorie breakfast for pennies and it's really good for you too. It's completely great kind of muscle burning, low fat, I mean high fat results and a low fat physique basically, that's another thing that people don't realize is that a high carb and high sugar lifestyle is a big part of our problem.
Rosie Tran: Do you think people are just ignorant or uneducated, or do you think it's a matter of defending what someone's lifestyle is, like someone who has a very unhealthy lifestyle saying, "Well, I just can't get healthy food, that's the reason."
Mr. Money Mustache: I believe they would like to know the answer and because this blog that I write has a lot of people reading it now and I get a lot of emails everyday and comments, saying that people made a lot of changes and appreciate the difference it's making in their finances and their health. There's people changing everyday, but if you don't start to look for the answers and if you just insist there are no answers, then obviously it's going to be pretty hard to find them.
Rosie Tran: I think that's a good point. What are some of the techniques that you talk about in your blog and obviously people can visit the blog after the podcast and check out more information, but what are some of the techniques to get people started? Obviously, you said frugal living, but what happens after they save this money? What are you advocating people invest it in?
Mr. Money Mustache: Well, you don't want to leave them in your checking account or savings account because then, I guess that's not too bad because it at least give you some peace of mind, but really investing is a super important part of your planning to become financially independent, so I'm.
Rosie Tran: Just saving is not enough for the-
Mr. Money Mustache: Yeah, right and saving for spending is kind of dumb too like, "Oh, I'm so frugal. I saved up $25,000 and now we got to have a great wedding.", and then you're broke again you know like, no. You saved the money and you invest it and you don't spend it ever, so buying, I'm a big advocate of index investing, which is kind of the simple, reliable statistically most profitable kind of investing where you just go to Vanguard, the Vanguard Investment company, ultra low fees. You just buy index funds where you get the entire US against.
Rosie Tran: Those match the stocks on the index, is that right?
Mr. Money Mustache: Yeah, right, so you end up with just a big slice of all of the American businesses and possibly all of the world businesses in the developed countries and then you just forget you ever bought it. Every time you have more money, you buy more of it and it pays you dividends every three months and the principle appreciates, and once you get a certain amount, turns out it's about 25 times your annual spending. If you get that much saved up, you can more or less quit forever and just would drop 4% a year.
Rosie Tran: Because the interest, is it because the interest will make enough money for you that equals your spending? Is that.
Mr. Money Mustache: Yeah, that's right.
Rosie Tran: Okay.
Mr. Money Mustache: The dividend checks are going to be most of your spending and then you can sell a tiny bit of the shares and they're going to go up faster than you sell them so overall, the whole package that you saved up goes up faster than inflation and keeps you happy even 50 years from now, it's still going to be more than what happen when you retire and you can also do the same thing with rental houses. That same exact idea, a rental house is just like owning a company except it's a tiny company where you're the boss and the factory is your house.
Rosie Tran: People are going to work everyday to give you money every month.
Mr. Money Mustache: Yeah, exactly so I have a rental house right now too and I've had more in the past, but stocks are easier, rental houses tend to yield a little bit more in exchange for a bit more knowledge and work.
Rosie Tran: Would advocate diversifying and having both or are you saying that stocks are a little bit easier in general for someone?
Mr. Money Mustache: It really just depends on your personality. A lot of people who are, my blog readers are pretty do it yourselfer kind of people, a lot of, there's a lot of guys in the tech industry for example, guys and girls and they are, they like to figure stuff out and I like to manage things and start businesses so there's a huge landlord proponent or landlord component in that readership. Other people are really afraid of rental houses or maybe they live in a place that is too expensive to have good price to rent ratios, so for them, if you don't want to get adventurous and by far away, rentals, you should just invest in stocks and feel good about that instead.
Rosie Tran: What would be a hurdle for someone that is renting out of state? Finding a good rental manager or what would intimidate someone about that?
Mr. Money Mustache: That's about it. You have to really know the local market at least a little bit in order to know what's a good value, a good neighborhood, what the type of people are that are the renters in your town, and you have to buy this house in the first place so for most people, it works out well if it's a city that you live in because you know your neighborhoods and you're like, "Oh, yeah, that bay front area has been coming up and getting better, and there's great transit center nearby and the rents I know are $2,000 a month." You can buy this house for say $300,000 or whatever and rent that for $2,000 and that's a pretty good use of your capital. That's just one example and if I was going to go try to figure that same thing out and say Louisville, Kentucky, I don't know anything about that city, so I might accidentally buy a house in this condemned area or I might end up with a lot of vacancy or whatever. It can be done. It just takes some research and you might have to visit the city and ask around.
Rosie Tran: If you were, but that would be the main, you would have to get like a property manager, something out of town that you trust or a company that you trust?
Mr. Money Mustache: That's true, yup. You need someone to manage it and you need to find local contractors to fix things like the water heater if you need some maintenance because you don't want to be traveling out to Kentucky to take care of your rental house.
Rosie Tran: That's a good point. Do you have properties out of state or they all in state?
Mr. Money Mustache: No, there's only one right now and even that's going to be sold this year, but I've never had any rental houses that were not within a biking distance of where I currently live because I like to do all my own work too, that's just my thing, is kind of carpentry and home building and stuff, so if something goes in the rental house, I like to go fix it myself. I find it a lot less stressful and it's obviously less costly too.
Rosie Tran: Did you have a certain ratio that you have people use whether the property is going to be profitable or not?
Mr. Money Mustache: There's some of a good.
Rosie Tran: There's a cost to profit ratio?
Mr. Money Mustache: Yeah, there's a lot of flex in that number, but.
Rosie Tran: Versus maybe investing in stocks?
Mr. Money Mustache: Yeah. Investing in stocks, you kind of just buy it and hope for the best especially you'll do a little better, but it's really a long term thing right.
Rosie Tran: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Mr. Money Mustache: Stocks don't fluctuate quite as much as rental houses do if you're considering rental houses all over the country, but here's a really simple rule of thumb. If you can get at 1% of your property's value in rent every month, then that's quite good in my opinion so $100,000 house that you can rent for $1,000 a month.
Rosie Tran: That's great.
Mr. Money Mustache: Would be good, some landlords are really strict and they insist on double that, but the only way to achieve that is to buy kind of a multi unit thing in a not so good area where you buy an eightplex in kind of a drug crime area, then the building will be dirt cheap and the rents will be low-ish, but not as low as the property price so I wouldn't go much further on the other side though, like for example, don't buy a $500,000 house and then rent it out for $1,000 a month.
Rosie Tran: Yeah.
Mr. Money Mustache: Or even $2,000 because.
Rosie Tran: It's not worth it.
Mr. Money Mustache: You have to allow for property taxes and all this money that's getting tied up and the chance of things going wrong and everything, which is why in San Francisco and places like Berkeley, the rents are way too low compared to the house prices so I wouldn't buy one to rent out and in fact, if I was, were to move to that area, I would go straight to the rental market instead of buying a house because you can rent a house in Berkeley for $3,000 that would cost almost a million dollars to buy and it's much better deal to be on the renter side in that equation.
Rosie Tran: Have you ever heard of like leasing to own type things or financing the renter to buy the property? Have you, would you advocate for that?
Mr. Money Mustache: That's all kind of a gimmick I find. I try not to get mixed up in that like for example, if you have a renter who wants to buy a house that you own, then they'll just buy it. If they've got their finances together, they can easily get a loan. If they don't.
Rosie Tran: I know someone who is like they're "being the bank" for their renter, I don't know anything about that so I was wondering if you.
Mr. Money Mustache: Yeah, I mean I'm sure it can work but in general, I would rather just put it on the open market and then let somebody who has the money right now come along and buy it especially given that the US is in a fairly good real estate market again these days. There's buyers again. Prices are going up.
Rosie Tran: I was wondering because he was talking about how he was making the payments or the renter was making payments to him and that was a benefit to him, but I didn't know anything about that so I wasn't sure if you advocated for that.
Mr. Money Mustache: There's some tricks involved too because suddenly, if you have a contract like that, then the renter is now an owner because they have a contract to buy the house. They're kind of already buying it, which means if they stop paying then it's much harder for them to get kicked out because they're like, now you get into this whole foreclosure rule set.
Rosie Tran: You have to foreclose scene, yeah and save the difference.
Mr. Money Mustache: Instead of just rental so, they would have to be really, really crazy financial benefits for the owner to justify and the extra hassle that that situation. Otherwise, just let the rental go on, no problem. If someone wants to buy it, they can grab a bank loan, then you get the full price for your rental right away and then you never have to think about it again.
Rosie Tran: Okay, so I know that you talk about saving half your income and it sounds like it's pretty doable for maybe a couple or something. What about someone who's not making that much money, maybe they're making $15,000, $20,000 a year and they don't have someone supporting them. What are some steps that they can take to get toward financial freedom, because I know in my situation, my husband works and then all of my income goes towards savings so it's super easy for us to save.
Mr. Money Mustache: Yes, dual income people have it pretty good, and hopefully, more people will realize that instead of saying life is hard and you need two incomes just to survive, but it all depends on what your goals are and how badass you're willing to become?
Rosie Tran: I love that.
Mr. Money Mustache: Not every, a lot of times, if you're making $15,000 a year, there's often quite a huge upside in what you can earn so, I kind of have this $100,000 guideline or if you make less than that, then there's probably some advantage to be had and to trying to earn more, sometimes easier said than done, but sometimes easier done than said, but if you make more than $100,000, that's so much that you can pretty much save it really easily and become financially independent anyway. At the 15 side, that person should really be looking into trying to earn more. At the same time, you could still do whatever you want. You can find a way to live for free like Magnum PI did on the luxury house in Hawaii, just for some kind of insider deal and special arrangements are really a great thing. If you're a nice person and you get along well with people, you can often get things like houses, places to stay or food or whatever in exchange for services or whatever, so you get a cheaper life through just being a nice person.
Rosie Tran: What a concept. I have two more things I really want to discuss and then we'll see where the conversation goes. One is alternative income. I know a couple financial gurus or bloggers and other things recommend getting a second job or getting a third job and paying down all your debts to lurk on and just sticking to it. Are you an advocate of just working and saving and investing or should it be kind of like a race to the finish for someone can get three or four jobs or is it just a personal decision?
Mr. Money Mustache: Definitely nothing wrong with that especially if you're younger and you don't have any children yet, so you can, because I've never really regretted any hard work that I've done in my life. It's always kind of, even if that night, I fall down exhausted. The next day I think, "Oh, that's amazing that I did so much stuff yesterday."
Rosie Tran: Did you have multiple jobs at one point?
Mr. Money Mustache: Not, as an adult, I just worked as an engineer. I worked really hard so I got a lot of kind of salary increases and bonuses and stuff. Then on the side, I did renovate my own houses when I, the first house that I moved into was a really, really crappy 1970s ranch and so I worked all the weekends, fixing that out while I worked during the days as an engineer. This is before becoming a dad so I had all the time in the world. My wife helped me and that was pretty nice. It's kind of like a second job because the house increased in value by maybe $100,000.
Rosie Tran: You were putting sweat equity in.
Mr. Money Mustache: Exactly, and then when we left, we rented that place out for a few years and that was higher income than it would have been if the house hadn't been so nice, and then when we sold it, it was worth considerably more so that money went straight into the retirement funds too. Yeah, that's actually a pretty good second job for anybody who does own a house who's become good at home renovation and get your house in a really amazing shape and fix stuff up, do a good job. That's completely tax free income. Anything you make on your primary residence just doesn't get taxed and it's just straight to the bank.
Rosie Tran: Also, I want to address, do you think that a college education in this day and age is not a good investment since kids are leaving school, $300,000 in debt, $100,000 in debt and just not being able to pay it back for years and years and years?
Mr. Money Mustache: It's definitely not always a good investment and it's certainly not required to get good job in many fields so those are the good things to tell yourself when you're shopping around for college. The other thing is, I would have never even considered doing an out of state college because it costs so much more back when I was a kid. In Canada, it costs less than it does here, but I just looked up the tuition for Colorado University near where I live here, and it's quite affordable. It's under $10,000 for any program per year so that's $40,000 for an entire degree. You can easily make $10,000 a summer just working as a house painter or whatever so there's no real reason to get in super debt.
On the other hand, let's say you want to go to Harvard Law School and you're from a high income family so you can't get any grant assistance and it's going to cost you a couple hundred thousand. I guess that's okay if you really, if you're ready to commit to being a lawyer when you graduate. You're going to make enough to pay that back within a few years afterwards so that would be a case where a college is totally worthwhile. I would just say what you don't want to do is sign up for random XYZ liberal arts college across the country, it's privately run high, high tuition, prestigious just so you can broaden your horizons and then you come out with no plan for a job, and then you're like, "Oh, college is so expensive." Don't do that. That's a really stupid idea.
Rosie Tran: Why do you think there is such a huge, because there seems to be a huge shift in college debt where students are getting more and more heavier debt loads in, I think they were saying that college loan debt now is bigger than housing mortgage debt and the burdens are heavier and heavier. Where is this coming from?
Mr. Money Mustache: I believe it's just a mass trend, a mass trend toward ridiculousness because first of all, private colleges and a lot of places have been raising tuition just because they can, not even because their cost are rising but just because they're like, "Hey, there's lots of federal loans available to fund these kids. People are willing to sign up so we're just going to charge more." That's one factor.
Rosie Tran: Do you think that it's a, do you think it's a lie that the cost are going up because I hear that all the time, "Oh, college costs are going up", so colleges are having to raise their tuition prices.
Mr. Money Mustache: I'm sure that's true as well, but there is no reason for that. The cost should be going down when you think about it because basically there's the internet.
Rosie Tran: Because more people are going to college, right?
Mr. Money Mustache: Yeah, the internet means that information can be spread so much more easily, you don't have to have everybody on campus all the time and you can disperse professors and students all over the country and you don't need fancy buildings. There's no real reason in my opinion for these tuition's to be going up, so when the price of something goes up and the value delivered doesn't go up, you don't have to buy that thing anymore. You can get a great education for free in a lot of places and I just find that the internet has thrown such a loop into all of this. It's made it free to get a great education. It's allowed you to connect to people a lot better so people should just be really a lot more skeptical before they go blowing a lot in college unless they're already so rich that it doesn't matter.
Rosie Tran: Do you think in certain ways, college can be a scam because of the fact that a lot of kids go to school for one degree and then maybe get a job at another degree that, or another field that has nothing to do, obviously if you're a lawyer or a doctor, an engineer, very specific field, but a lot of kids go to school for english lit, or writing, creative writing or maybe, not or design or something where they think, "Oh, well, I'm going to be a graphic designer. I'm going to be an artist or something.", not necessarily an artistic field, but just one filed and then they decide, oh, you know they can't get a job or they go into the real world and it's not what they think and so I think the statistic is about 40% of people actually go into a career field that's not what they studied so it seems like what is the point of all this?
Mr. Money Mustache: Well, I guess, you don't always want to look at college as purely job training because that's kind of an insult to the original intent of higher education because you're still going to learn a lot of useful stuff if you take it seriously, but I think the real thing is just looking at prices and shopping around by price and not being idealistic and saying, "I'm going to move across the country for such and such program." Just think about those dollars as real dollars and in fact, what I would do actually is insist on myself, not borrowing any money, which is how I did do it in real life and you save up in advance and you earn money as you go, and if it's too expensive for you to do that.
Rosie Tran: Then don't do it?
Mr. Money Mustache: Then you just don't do it, it's no big deal. The same reason you don't, not everybody has a Tesla or an Aston Martin or whatever, some kind of billion dollar car.
Rosie Tran: Like Aston Martin, I don't even know how to say it.
Mr. Money Mustache: Just because you don't have the money for it so you just don't consume that good or service.
Rosie Tran: Do you have 529 plans setup for the kids?
Mr. Money Mustache: I only have one son.
Rosie Tran: You have one son.
Mr. Money Mustache: I do not, I don't do a 529 plan for him, partly for the reasons we're talking about here because number one, I believe in him that he's going to be able to earn his own money so I'm not going to tell him that there's all this money waiting for him.
Rosie Tran: You're not saving for his college? You want him to empower himself?
Mr. Money Mustache: Yeah, well, we're done, I mean when you're early retired, that means you have many college educations worth of money.
Rosie Tran: Okay.
Mr. Money Mustache: Already saved up, so you can take some of that. You can take the change out of your wallet and pay for your kids education if you need to, but you don't want them to know that because it might turn them into lazy trust fund brats so instead you kind of set the idea of what we're talking about, where are you, you earn your own money and you find ways to do it affordably and don't forget the whole community college to get half of your credits in advance and then you do a credited university for the last two years. One of my friends is a lawyer who has a very, very high income, very prestigious job now, and he got half of his law education just from his local community college. Then he jumped over to the in state, fairly good university. It wasn't Harvard or anything, got the rest of it and now he's doing the whole lawyer style salary and he did really well in it and he hardly recommends that for anybody doing any field.
Rosie Tran: How did you come up with the idea to start the blog, Mr. Money Mustache?
Mr. Money Mustache: The blog was kind of born out of frustration because.
Rosie Tran: Okay.
Mr. Money Mustache: I started this. We did this saving up lifestyle, quit working around 30, just before turning 31 and then for several years, we were just, my wife and I were just anonymous, non working people raising a kid, and all of my working peers, you know the folks we used to have jobs with continue to make more and more money, and then still have none. They kept saying, "I can't believe you guys don't have any debt or don't have to work.", whenever we let that kind of stuff slip, because they were completely broke.
Rosie Tran: Why were you guys keeping it anonymous? I'm just curious, and not letting it out for people to know because you don't want people to know you had money or you just were, it was private or personal to you or?
Mr. Money Mustache: Yeah, we didn't want to seem like braggarts so we kind of just quit working.
Rosie Tran: Okay.
Mr. Money Mustache: Then gradually people realized like, I was doing a lot of carpentry as a hobby and getting paid for it a little bit, but they kind of put two and two together and realized like, "Wait a minute."
Rosie Tran: They're like, "Wait a minute."
Mr. Money Mustache: "We have two, like hundred thousand dollar jobs and your carpenter job makes maybe $5,000 or $10,000 a year. How can you keep going?" Then I said, "Do you really want to know?", and then they said, "Yeah, we do.", so I invited a bunch of people over and gave this kind of a little sermon on saving and investing and spending and explained, and it was clear to them what they were doing wrong and that actually upsets some people. They're like, "Well, I don't think we should talk about money anymore because it's a very personal topic.", and then I thought, "Fuck this, I'm just going to make a blog.", and then just explain this to the world because nobody in person wants to hear it but I think people don't mind reading from an anonymous stranger, a bunch of financial advice because I'm not really judging them personally and the written format.
Rosie Tran: Were you judging your friends or do you think they just felt judged because they weren't doing the most savvy thing?
Mr. Money Mustache: Yeah, I tried not to sound judgmental. I just tried to sound like, "These ideas are great. Look how they work.", but you know secretly, I probably was thinking that their ridiculous brand new SUVs were not the best choice, financed on credit and their crazy $2,500 road bikes and giant wardrobes that don't even fit in a single bedroom's closet and stuff like that.
Rosie Tran: Yeah.
Mr. Money Mustache: Yeah, I do tend to be a little judgmental but only for people's best interests. It's friendly judgment.
Rosie Tran: You started the blog and it just evolved from there?
Mr. Money Mustache: Yeah, the blog is about three years old now and so, our retirement is more like nine years old so, but it has gone to take over my life and because it's become so much fun so I've typed up 400 of these articles, I just noticed today on my list and there's still lots more to say and there's a lot of people that are actually making changes, which is what keeps me going. That's what the exciting part is, is actually my often spoken mission is to save the United States from destroying the world from its consumption habits.
Rosie Tran: That's a very, very good goal and that's probably one of the greenest things you can do because of all the crazy consumption. Let's talk about frugality and then we got to wrap up, but you talk about cutting the food bill, cutting the crazy motor vehicle bill. What are some small steps people can take to, who maybe aren't ready to dive into the water, but they want to stick their feet in?
Mr. Money Mustache: Well, you could do something like getting a new cellphone plan that's not as expensive. Most people still have a hundred dollar plus bills and in recent years, a bunch of competitive companies have popped up that cut these bills, well, not really offering the same, the service is just as good so I'm kind of a fan of this one called Republic Wireless where it's $25 for unlimited everything and a lot of people were excited about discovery, showing up on the blog because family of four, if they happen to have four cellphones, it can go from $400 down to $100, that's one of them.
Rosie Tran: I also want to add on to that. I just want all the listeners to know that some people are really snobby about their cellphone services, and they say, "Well, you know this service isn't as fast as this one, and this one is not.", guys, they all use the same cell towers. There's actually a certain amount of cell towers that are part of the infrastructure and different companies like AT&T or Verizon or Sprint, rent the time and rent the bandwidth, so when you think that your whatever brand cellphone is superior, you're wrong.
Mr. Money Mustache: Well, that's true to an extent, but I do know that sometimes there's two competing cell towers in one region, and one will be better than the other like for example, Sprint supposedly has less good coverage and a lot of areas, and the Republic, the one that I like uses Sprint, and Verizon supposedly has better coverage or more towers or whatever, but then again, with the Republic phone, it actually roams automatically onto Verizon if the Sprint one's not working so, so yeah.
Rosie Tran: A lot of the small like Republic, boost virgin, Metro PCS, a lot of the side competitors are actually, what is it called where they actually belong to a bigger company, but they just are branding themselves as a small, a different company?
Mr. Money Mustache: Oh, yeah, yeah it could be.
Rosie Tran: Yeah, and they use the exact same towers. Not all of them, but like you said.
Mr. Money Mustache: Right.
Rosie Tran: You know Republic is using the same cell information as Sprint and Sprint, they're charging $99 a month unlimited, yet Republic is charging $25 and they're, you're getting the same service.
Mr. Money Mustache: Yeah, that's a great comparison so you'd never want to actually get Sprint service and because you can get it through other sellers that are lower.
Rosie Tran: Yeah, so that's what I wanted to make because some people are really snobby about having a certain brand.
Mr. Money Mustache: Oh my God.
Rosie Tran: I just want listeners to know that a lot of times, they are using the same cell towers.
Mr. Money Mustache: That's true, and then there's other stuff like I'm a big advocate of giving up TV, not just cable TV, but all TV because I think it's a total waste of time.
Rosie Tran: Cash.
Mr. Money Mustache: Yeah.
Rosie Tran: I totally agree with you. We have no cable. We just have Netflix, and a lot of people cannot believe, they're like, "Well, how come you not have TV you know? Well, what do you do for fun, this and that.", and we have enhanced our minds and our physical bodies and our emotional well-beings so much by cutting out television and it's just a brainwash and also a total drain of time.
Mr. Money Mustache: Yeah, it's really bad for your brain I think, and you're right. Netflix, I'm not against that and we still have Netflix in my house and we watch cool like science documentaries with my eight year old son and it's a happy time, but we don't do it everyday. Maybe once a week, we'll crank out on a couple of these nice documentaries and a lot of work goes into them. Regular shows and sports, I mean, as a guy, I probably not supposed to be saying this, but watching sports on TV is the most ridiculous activity like just go out and do some damn sports. There's so many ads in between the sports things too, so you're just completely rotting your brain with just crap ads and then pointless guys running around that aren't you.
Rosie Tran: Well, I call it, you're basically watching a bunch of multi millionaires have fun doing what they love.
Mr. Money Mustache: Yeah, exactly so.
Rosie Tran: You're not doing it.
Mr. Money Mustache: When people object to this TV idea, my ultimate suggestion is just try it, like try it for even a week or preferably a month and just see what happens in this time that you are suddenly not watching TV, and what you'll find is your life gets better like the stuff on your to do list that's getting done. You spend more time outside, you start getting in shape, you start earning more money and all this different ways and read more books. Books are very good for you.
Rosie Tran: You've become more creative and anyone who says they don't have time, cut your TV out of your life and all of a sudden, so much time will emerge.
Mr. Money Mustache: Yeah.
Rosie Tran: Time that you never thought existed and you'll say, "Oh, I have all this time. I was just watching TV all the time."
Mr. Money Mustache: Yeah, so those are two tiny tips. If you want to get tiny bit more hard core, then start riding your bike for tiny, really easy things. Ride your bike to whatever is closest to your house. It might be just the jogging track, the regal running or it might be this convenient store where you just get refills of milk and eggs or something.
Rosie Tran: Well, now I want some more hard core tips. All right, two more hard core tips and then we go to wrap up.
Mr. Money Mustache: Those are all easy tips, but yeah, bikes are a little hard.
Rosie Tran: No, I want a hard core tip. Two hard core tips.
Mr. Money Mustache: I can't think of stuff like that on the spot, but if you look at this post of mine that's called, if you just search Google for the words middle class to kickass, you'll see the complete list of everything that makes the difference $140,000 of spending for the kind of an upper middle income family, slicing that down to $25,000 or $35,000, which leaves you saving $100,000 and it's all the tips from easy to hard, actually none of them are hard. It's just getting rid of the ridiculous stuff in your life, so pretty much any upper income family can end up saving two thirds of what they make just by following the tips in that article.
Rosie Tran: I am reading this article right now as we get off the podcast. I'm so excited Mr. Money Mustache. Okay, so guys, check out mrmoneymustache.com. Are you in Twitter?
Mr. Money Mustache: Yeah, I do have the @mrmoneymustache name on Twitter.
Rosie Tran: Where can we see you next? What is going to be next with the pod, with the website and the blog? Are you going to be touring? Are you going to be going and speaking in any conventions? Come on, Mr. Money Mustache, we want to see more of you.
Mr. Money Mustache: Well, you have to remember that I'm retired so this blog is really a hobby. It gets like two hours a week of work on most weeks, a little bit. This one's have been a bit funny. I have a new design that just showed up. It took a lot of work so, no I'm not going on any tours. Don't have any stuff to sell.
Rosie Tran: You're like, "I've been enjoying my retirement, Rosie."
Mr. Money Mustache: Yeah. I have a son. He takes all my time. I'm going to be in San Francisco at the end of May and there's going to be like a little party in some yet to be determined park, but that's about it.
Rosie Tran: Well, I am so happy to have you on here. Thank you so much for being with us today, Mr. Money Mustache. Guys, if you enjoy the podcast, don't forget to visit outoftheboxpodcast.com, and click on the Donate button. We're now accepting bitcoins and ethereum. Outoftheboxpodcast.com and don't forget to visit hugmetees.com. Spread Love, Give A Hug, hugmetees.com. Thank you so much for listening to Out of The Box.